DC2NY Bus To Go Out of Business?
22 June 2008 10:05 PM | By Prince Of Petworth in TransitThanks to Kevin for sending the below information. I don’t know if I’d call L’enfant plaza a “scary, unsafe” location but it is certainly interesting to know that DC2NY thinks they’d go out of business if forced to move there. So what do you all think – is it unfair to make all the intercity buses move to this location?
“Your readers who use intercity buses should be aware that new ‘emergency rules’ by the DC DOT are going to force all buses into a scary, unsafe, and inconvenient strip of road in southwest DC –by July 3rd.
DC2NY bus is probably going out of business due to the new DDOT emergency rules, WHEN they go in effect July 3rd. The owner of DC2NY returned my email with a voice mail and said they’d met with DDOT to tell them that they’re not the problem, but he said DDOT doesn’t care. He sounds like there is nothing he can do. New rules go into effect July 3, and the only DC Council person to get back to me was Mary Cheh, who said she was not aware of the new rules. I have it unconfirmed that one other bus company, with 20+ employees, will also leave DC, and I’m working to confirm that. Looks like jobs will be lost, and minorities/poor will have one less travel option. (Mayor Fenty and all the at-large council members have not returned my emails.)
The links below are the original story, the DCist story, and the DDOT’s website, which has PDF’s of the rules and the new application for using the strip of road in SW. The application is really arrogant if you know anything about how these buses work. For example, no public vending of tickets. Anyhow, NY and Philly don’t seem to have a problem with the buses. (The reader comments in both stories are great, too.)
I’d start an advocacy website/log, but it looks like these new rules are going to go in effect nothing short of a law suit, and after speaking with two bus companies, I do not get the feeling they are headed in that direction.
DC should prepare itself to be mightily embarrassed, once again; and we should all look forward to catching our buses in Bethesda after July 3rd. Maybe you guys can find out what ‘complaints’ were really made about the buses? Maybe the complaints come from a bus company that has it’s own private loading space and is exempt from the new rules? Greyhound? Why the ‘Emergency Rules’ with no live-public hearing, little media coverage, and a 30 day window? Why weren’t the bus companies informed until 15 days after the rules were entered into the DC Register?”
-Kevin Ricche
http://dcist.com/2008/06/18
http://www.ddot.dc.gov/ddot
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22 June 2008 10:30 PM | Park Road Guy Said:
I can’t comment on the change of pick-up location, other than to say that reducing consumer choice isn’t something I support. That said, I do support moving away from ‘public vending’ of tickets.
Long story short, after having booked a two-way ticket on a Chinatown bus, I found myself and my girlfriend stranded outside Penn Station surrounded by a growing mob of angry passengers, all waiving tickets and screaming at various bus drivers or employees of Eastern Travel as we watched numerous buses come and go, none of which was destined for DC. No one spoke enough English to explain what was going on. Though the tickets had booked online two weeks prior had us leaving NYC at 4:00, it was quick approaching 7:00 and I was incredibly pissed. I was livid. I was ready to kick some serous ass to get my way on to the bus, and, no surprise so was everyone else around us. Despite my attempts to communicate that I already HAD a ticket, employees began to vend tickets for a bus ride that I had paid for weeks before and weren’t letting me on. I eventually screamed loud enough and looked threatening enough to be offered a seat. But the growing mob outside the bus wasn’t having it. At one point a woman just went off and said “Don’t make me get my knife, don’t you f&%ing make me get my knife!”
That was my last Chinatown bus ride.
I applaud the ban on public vending of tickets. If you want cheap ride to NYC I strongly recommend DC2NY, which offers guaranteed seats to those who book online. This way you get your seat and you probably won’t get knifed.
22 June 2008 10:44 PM | Expat Said:
This sucks. Can DC government do ANYTHING right?
22 June 2008 10:57 PM | saf Said:
First, not a dangerous location they will need to move to, and easily accessible.
Second, I’ll be glad to see them stop blocking traffic all over downtown.
Third, I see how the broke (and the cheap) might lose a travel option, but the assumption that “minorities” will be affected any more than anyone else by that result is confusing.
22 June 2008 11:13 PM | Kevin Said:
Gallery Place to L’enfant: 10 blocks.
Not that big a deal.
P.S. Are PoP’s readers really going to be scared by a strip of road in SW near the mall? We live in Petworth!
22 June 2008 11:23 PM | Anonymous Said:
It’s not merely confusing to say that “minorities” will be affected more, saf, it seems downright racist. Minority and poor and two seperate and distinct categories! A person of color can take the train or fly just as easily as a white person.
22 June 2008 11:31 PM | Caro Said:
I’m pretty annoyed with this decision, if only because I have tickets to take a DC2NY bus on July 3rd!!! I was pretty happy with getting on at 14th between H&I (right near my office), but now I don’t know where I’m supposed to go! Hopefully they’ll email me when they have a new location… I can’t believe that the DDOT is forcing them to make the change so quickly that people have already bought tickets for a pickup location that will have to be moved.
On another topic — considering that people of color are more likely to be socioeconomically disadvantaged than white people (especially within cities like DC), it is just accurate to say that something which affects the poor will have a disproportionately greater effect on people of color than on white people.
22 June 2008 11:38 PM | Kevin Ricche Said:
Anonymous, I hear you loud and clear, it was very poor wording on my part, but I think ‘confusing’ is a good place to start before we jump to racist. I’m going to try and round up stats on the income of intercity bus users as well as the racial background of intercity bus users, and compare them to the more expensive modes of transportation you mention, such as train and air travel. I will also try to assess the impact of job losses when the bus companies go out of business –will the job losses mostly affect minority workers from these bus companies? Are the companies themselves owned and operated by minorities –I think these are questions we really need to address, so if we’re going to address them, I’ll try to be more tactful –but by all means ‘minorities/poor’ was a terrible abbreviation on my part of the larger statistical issues I was referring to, and I apologize, it wasn’t my intent to automatically link ‘poor’ and ‘minority’.
23 June 2008 12:28 AM | Anonymous Said:
L’Enfant is only 4-5 minutes metro ride from Gallery Place. I gotta say I’m getting pretty pissed at all the whining about how L’Enfant is some monumental inconvenience. Some people actually have REAL problems beyond having a four hour trip increased by 5-10 mins.
23 June 2008 12:37 AM | Kevin Ricche Said:
saf and POP bring up some really good points here about the safety of L’Enfant Plaza as our Nation’s Capital intercity bus depot. i’m going to research the probability of being a violent crime victim at 7am and 11pm (during the weekends) at the new bus depot location vs. the probability of being a violent crime victim during the same times at Dupont Circle or in Chinatown at the intersection of 7th and H St. Now, I’m also going to factor in the availability of open businesses and frequency of police patrols during those times, as well as factor in the time and distance it takes to reach the Metro stop, as well as the current availability of taxis. this should produce an index of relative safety, and my initial estimate that the L’Enfant location was more unsafe /could/ be wrong –I’m always up for over-turning my assumptions.
The question saf raises about the accessibility of the location is much easier to refute. Seven locations around the city are much more accessible than one location –this is really a question about how we view the reduction of service the District is thrusting upon us. We can all get to L’Enfant easily –that’s not the point. The point is that it is much easier for all residents of the District to get to any of the main seven bus loading locations currently in operation.
Also, saf raises a good point we should look at, he says, “Second, I’ll be glad to see them stop blocking traffic all over downtown.” I’m aware of issues at McPherson Square where the DDOT has issued a permit that conflicts with a MetroBus stop –is this what you’re referring to? That’s a valid issue, and one I’m surprised is still around. However, I want to be sure saf is talking about /intercity buses/ in this case. There are many buses downtown, and they get in my way, too. But we need to be sure DDOT is regulating the right buses. Along these lines, both saf and everyone else should urge DDOT to release the research they have showing the congestion that saf is referring to –the problem might not be with intercity buses at all –but we don’t know, because the DDOT has kept that research, if they have it, a secret.
Lastly, I take good-hearted umbrage at saf’s last comment and his ‘let them eat cake’ attitude. He or she said: “Third, I see how the broke (and the cheap) might lose a travel option…” I’m glad to hear that saf is neither broke nor cheap, as he/she doesn’t seem to include him/herself in either category, but let’s say that money had nothing to do with intercity bus travel, but time and convenience did. If we look at how long it takes to get from Washington to New York via bus, plane, and train, we start to see some real patterns. On average, the travel to the airport, the wait in line, and the cost to get to the airport (think NYC), make air travel a time-consuming option that, for most travelers, incurs some cost if they change or make plans at the last minute. I can run down more in-depth comparisons later if needed. The same goes for trains, surprisingly, although you’d think they’d be competitive given the train’s location near popular intercity bus stops. Again, trains are not as competitive –they are comfy, to be sure, but the ticket restrictions and high ticket-costs make the intercity buses a much more valuable option to people who need to get up the coast fast and within a reasonable cost.
Lastly, Park Road Guy relates a story about Eastern Travel that, some time ago, was not an uncommon thing to hear. I had some bad experiences in 2005 and 2006 with them –but thanks to some constructive pressure for them to improve their management, these problems are largely gone from Eastern, though I ride often with DC2NY now –which begs the question: why is our elected government pushing DC2NY out the door when they’re the /good guys/ here?
I think, if anything else, I’ve proposed here that there are many unanswered questions about why the DDOT, after more than a decade of small-business intercity bus travel in the District, needed to resort to Emergency rules so quickly. If the DDOT would be open with us, then I think we’d all have less of a problem with the entire debate, but as it is, it seems that the DDOT is simply intent on running small and minority-owned businesses, well, out-of-business.
23 June 2008 12:57 AM | Kevin Ricche Said:
Anonymous said: “L’Enfant is only 4-5 minutes metro ride from Gallery Place. I gotta say I’m getting pretty pissed at all the whining about how L’Enfant is some monumental inconvenience. Some people actually have REAL problems beyond having a four hour trip increased by 5-10 mins.”
Anonymous brings up a point that actual riders of intercity buses will be able to more accurately address here, mainly, that all we’re talking about is five minutes here. In reality, Dupont Circle is about 15 minutes away from L’Enfant, which is fine if Metro is running according to schedule, but we all know they don’t always run according to schedule, and on the weekend, well, we all know we have to show up at the Metro maybe a 1/2 hour earlier than when we expect our train to arrive. So really, that “5-10 mins.” trip is about 30 to 45 minutes of delay on a Saturday morning if you need to be at L’Enfant by a certain time.
Heaven forbid the bus rider is coming from Falls Church or Greenbelt. We’re talking about more than five or ten minutes –we’re talking about what tourists and visitors get to see when they arrive in DC.
In NYC, the intercity buses have stops in some of the most vibrant and amazing places in the city –are we to tell our visitors and tourists to DC that L’Enfant is the best we can do? Some late 1960’s underground shopping mall and overheated strip of asphalt is the best way to welcome people to the Nation’s Capitol? Or do we just not care?
23 June 2008 1:15 AM | Anonymous Said:
@Kevin – those are very hollow arguments for me. Whether you are taking a metro from Petworth to Gallery Place or to L’Enfant you’d be prudent to get to be cautious and arrive early. It’s not like the destination of L’Enfant somehow dictates this more than any other metro location.
If these bus companies want to be downtown then pay for that right. Buy some space in a lot or work out an arrangement with the city to purchase some curb space that is currently occupied by meter parking. But just letting every new bus company doublepark for 20-30 minutes anywhere they feel like it is ridiculous.
23 June 2008 2:26 AM | Kevin Ricche Said:
OK, so, the bus issue is serious, but let’s have some fun since we’re here, right? I hope PoP doesn’t ban me for this, but it’s good to have fun sometimes with comments, right?
Ah, Anonymous… is he a flamer or… nah, he’s a flamer but I’m going to bite. Like the Rob Newhouse character said in Office Space, “Y’know, minimum-security prison is no picnic. I have a client in there right now. He says the trick is: kick someone’s ass the first day, or become someone’s bitch. Then everything will be all right.”
Your first paragraph refutes nothing. It basically says L’Enfant is equally distant from any other point on Earth. Please prove that. It takes longer to get to L’Enfant from Dupont than Gallery Place. If you can’t support your argument, perhaps you should log in with your real name so we can give you a break for only having a nominal understanding of geography and arithmetic.
Anyhow, I won’t stoop to your level, say, by comparing you to the rats in the first frame of Fallout or Wasteland, though I doubt you’re old enough to know about that… but to refute your second paragraph, the bus companies DO indeed pay dearly for the right to operate in the District and (yawn), you should really know this before you open your mouth. All the companies come to “an arrangement with the city” as you say, and none of them, based on these agreements, actually ‘doublepark’ as you say.
True, I should, as you say, “be prudent to get to be cautious” of your next attack, but something tells me I have nothing to sweat based on your lack of English conjugation skills.
Really, PoP is about creating a better community for all of us, and I’d like to see more debate than just some guy out to cause problems.
23 June 2008 8:54 AM | Anonymous Said:
Hey Pop – Kevin’s posts are pretty hostile towards your readership. Read both my posts and his and it’s clear who is “on the attack”.
Kevin wrote:
“Your first paragraph refutes nothing. It basically says L’Enfant is equally distant from any other point on Earth. Please prove that. It takes longer to get to L’Enfant from Dupont than Gallery Place.”
That’s not what I said at all. My point was that this extra 30 minutes you’ve added before boarding a metro would exist regardless of destination. You are adding that time cost to L’Enfant like it’s a new burden. But if I was getting on metro in Petworth to ride to Gallery Place I’d have that same incentive to leave on the early side for caution. It’s not like I can perfectly time any train from Petworth and my destination doesn’t change that. So that 30 minutes being portrayed as a new time impact from L’Enfant is disingenuous. The new time cost for a Petworthian is merely the extra time it takes for the Green/Yellow like train to go from Gallery Place to L’Enfant and that is 5 minutes.
23 June 2008 9:01 AM | saf Said:
Kevin – just to make your typing easier: SAF is my initials. My name is Sarah. (And hence, I’m guessing that you can now tell that I’m female.) (Sorry – I assume people know that because once in a while I remember to sign my comments.)
Oh, and my issues with those buses blocking traffic have been at metro center and chinatown.
23 June 2008 9:17 AM | Jason Said:
FWIW – Kevin Ricche is a New York city resident. He just wants whatever will get him to the DuPont nightlife the quickest. As DC residents we do have more concerns than that.
23 June 2008 9:39 AM | Adams Morgan Said:
As someone who walks by the pick up spot at 11th & G (Bolt and Megabus) every day and sometimes catches a Metrobus there, I’m very glad they are moving the locations. The passengers waiting for the NYC buses clog the sidewalk and the buses often stop in ways that force those waiting for the Metrobuses to walk into the street to get on the bus. While I can appreciate Mr. Ricche’s concerns for “intercity” bus riders, my bigger concern is for “intrAcity” bus riders. The NYC buses should absolutely not be permitted to usurp Metrobus stops.
23 June 2008 9:47 AM | ro Said:
sorry but these buses are out of control. I used to live across the street from one of their loading locations on 5th st and i currently work down the street from the 14th st. location. these buses used to be pretty low key years ago and caused very little inconvenience for residents. im not sure what their data shows, but anecdotely ridership has now clearly boomed creating more frequent buses blocking traffic and more riders blocking the sidewalk and more locations across the area. the spots at 8th st and h and 5th and H can be some of the more problematic locations. i’m surprised it took the city this long to address it. Lenfant plaza isn’t some backwater out of the way location. its a few metro stops away from the current loading zones and tourists will have a very nice starting point for the trip into dc: a few blocks from the smithsonian castle and the mall.
23 June 2008 9:56 AM | alicia Said:
I agree with Adams Morgan — those buses park in metrobus stops and it is incredibly annoying and simply does not seem legal.
23 June 2008 10:05 AM | bogfrog Said:
what’s wrong with Greyhound? I never had a problem with Greyhound tickets or service, and there’s a pretty established system for waiting on an orderly line on both ends
23 June 2008 10:22 AM | poo poo Said:
thank goodness they’re moving! they’re such a nuisance in china town. they aggravate an already crappy traffic problem in that part of town. i work near l’enfant plaza, and it’s not only safe, it’s easily accessible from all parts of the city. does anyone really think that riders are going to stop taking these busses because they have to go five minutes south of china town?
no way, jose. they will go to wherever these cheap busses are. that’s a fact.
23 June 2008 10:41 AM | Parkwood Person Said:
I’m also glad they’re moving and consolidating. Nothing is more annoying than having to run around the city by metro to catch “the next” bus that is leaving from across town, when the one you were supposed to be on is already booked. We have a fabulous metro system to get around the city, why do we need express buses to NY to leave from multiple locations?
It seems like after a transition period, this would be a lot more economical for the bus lines too, no?
As for the safety issue- I don’t think the proposed location seems unreasonable dangerous. Especially if it becomes the new hub for the out of town buses- that in and of its self will bring more traffic, which will bring more cabs, police etc. Soon enough there will be vendors to sell you food while you wait for your bus as well. Sure, maybe there won’t be quite the selection as Chinatown or Dupont, but come on- this is the bus. You get what you pay for. Its not a God given right to have fabulous bars and lounges available to those waiting for the cheap bus to NY.
I’d see the real “threat” to the bus companies here is competition- with all of the companies based out of the same location, they’ll have to keep up with one another in terms of pricing and scheduling and service (ie, if one company screws you over, you can walk to the next one). How is that not great for the consumers?
23 June 2008 10:55 AM | FourthandEye Said:
Parkwood Person’s post nailed it.
23 June 2008 11:09 AM | kj Said:
Sure, the distance from Chinatown to L’Enfant isn’t that far, and it’s a short ride on the metro between the two spots — when the metro is actually running, which it often isn’t super-early in the morning when I want to take the bus.
But what about all the AU kids and others getting on the bus on 41st and Albemarle? The Tenleytown/AU metro stop is a haul from L’Enfant, I’m guessing Bethesda stops are closer.
23 June 2008 2:15 PM | Matt Said:
KJ, if I recall correctly the bus stop at AU was moved to Bethesda at least two years ago. Something about the bus company not securing the proper permits to operate in DC. I used to live in McLean Gardens, and the first time I tried to find the bus that stopped at AU, I was told it had been moved to downtown Bethesda.
23 June 2008 9:35 PM | Fisherman Said:
@Jason – checkout the WHOIS for ricche.biz, looks like a DC resident. i saw the wedding thing you did, but all his stuff is about dc, my 2 cents.